August 20, 2011
Posted by Jay Livingston
I concluded the previous post by asking for civility from commenters. Instead, I got the all too familiar belligerence (“if you dared to tell the truth,” “Instead of ‘thinking’ why not actually do some research, eh.” “Shoddy research, insinuations and obvious bias.”).
I said I would delete comments that violate common norms of civility. Any maybe I should have done that and moved on. But I’m responding and letting the comment stand
just because it’s so fucking stupid because it includes two relevant facts:
- The UK has a higher rate of violent crime than does the US
- Chicago has a high murder rate because of the many gang-related killings.
These both support the idea that more guns make for more murder.
On the first point: Start from the essential fact that the murder rate in the UK is a fraction of the US murder rate. That might be because the British are just a less violent society. But no. According to the commenter the UK is more violent, not less (I’ll accept his assertion, though I haven’t checked the data). How can Britain be more violent and yet have less murder? The obvious answer is that their violence is not lethal, and it’s not lethal because the weapons they have at hand are less deadly. The British are concerned about knives – knives, not guns – presumably because guns are not so prevalent and hence not so much a problem.
On the second: The Christian Science Monitor quote provided by the commenter says,
Chicago's gang problem is greater than that in either New York City or Los Angeles, according to Philip Cook . . . . 81 percent of [Chicago] homicides in the first seven months of this year were gang-related, which Mr. Cook says confirms his research that despite policing efforts, gun access is flourishing among Chicago’s gangs.
As I said in my original post, US cities, even those with a thinner gang presence than Chicago, have higher murder rates than London. Los Angeles, the city mentioned in contrast to gang-ridden Chicago, has a population half that of London. Yet it had more than four times as many teen murders from guns alone, making its rate of teen murder nearly ten times that of London.
Also, note why, according to Philip Cook, a gang problem makes for higher murder rates:
gun access is flourishing among Chicago's gangs
New York has a lower rate of teen homicide because it has less of a gang problem. Cook’s argument is
- Less gangs, less guns
- Less guns, less teen homicide
I don’t know why the Second Amendment boys get so annoyed when someone points out that guns are far more powerful and deadly than other weapons. If they weren’t, why would it be so important to preserve the absolute right to have them? Try telling the NRA members that they could just as easily defend themselves and their property, and protect their families if they armed themselves with knives or baseball bats. You would be greeted with anger and derision. And rightly so. The idea is preposterous.
The gunslingers are arguing that guns in the hands of someone with good intentions make it easier for him to achieve good ends (all that defending and protecting). But it’s equally true, probably more so, that guns in the hands of a person with bad intentions make it easier and more likely for him to achieve bad ends. Like murder.
That was my point in the original post. The London chavs and other blokes may be as numerous and vicious as the nasty youths in our cities, maybe more so. But they don’t have guns. Therefore, London has a much lower rate of teen homicide.